Scharansky dissident: America is the most dangerous country in the world for Jews

Nathan Sharansky. Photo: Shimon Briman

When the US ambassador to Germany, Richard Bert, transferred 30 years ago to Nathan Sharansky over the famous Glienicke bridge, famous for his spy exchanges, the optics of the CIA, KGB, intelligence services of the GDR and Israel were aimed at this strange pair. But no one could have imagined that this thin yesterday’s political prisoner from the USSR, wearing an awkward fur hat and a roughly-cut Soviet coat, would be awarded the highest awards of the USA, become a minister in three Israeli governments, and then head the largest global organization peace with Israel.

The prominent Soviet dissident, one of the founders of the Helsinki Group and the most famous “prisoner of Zion” Natan Sharansky was born in Ukrainian Donetsk in the year of the creation of the State of Israel (1948). He studied at the Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology. He was an assistant and translator of academician Andrei Sakharov.

In 1977, Sharansky was arrested by the KGB and convicted. In the most difficult conditions, he served 9 for years as an organizer of the human rights and Zionist movement in the USSR. Only in 1986, through the mediation of the USA, was he exchanged for a Soviet intelligence agent who had penetrated the CIA apparatus. The exchange took place on the bridge Glienike, which then connected East Berlin with West. Steven Spielberg recently glorified this place with the movie “Spy Bridge” starring Tom Hanks.

After repatriation to Israel, Natan Sharansky created a political party and held ministerial positions in three governments. He resigned in 2005 from the post of Minister of Jerusalem Affairs in protest against the decision of the government of Ariel Sharon to liquidate Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip.

Since 2009, he has been Chairman of the Jewish Agency for Israel (Sokhnut), the leading organization for the repatriation of Jews from all over the world to Israel.

Author of the book “The Case For Democracy: The Power Of Freedom to Overcome Tyranny And Terror,” which US President George W. Bush advised everyone to read.

US Ambassador Richard Bert takes Natan Sharansky (left) across the Glienike Bridge. Photo: video snapshot on the bridge, 1986 g.

In an exclusive interview with the portal Forum Daily The most famous Soviet dissident and the current head of the “Sohnut” spoke about the modern threats to the Jewish people, the fundamentals of the unity of the United States and Israel, and the feelings that he has in Donetsk today.

We talk with Natan Sharansky in his office in the main building of the Jewish Agency, on King George Street in Jerusalem, the capital of Israel.

— Nathan, you have been associated with American Jewry for many years. What is American Jewry like today? What threats are there for him?

— American delegations often ask me about the problems of Jews around the world. Recently, young Jews from Los Angeles asked about the problems of Jews in Ukraine, France, and Brazil. And I told them that the most dangerous place and the biggest problem for Jews is in America. Assimilation eats up huge parts of the community. Every day there are several hundred fewer Jews in America. Today in the world, 41% of Jews live in the United States and 43% in Israel - and that is why what is happening in America is so dangerous.

Delegitimization of Israel and assimilation are two big problems for the people of Israel.

— And how did young Californians react to this? Your words probably went against their grain...

- Yes, sure. But I told them: “Do you want to fight for the future of the Jewish people in the most dangerous place? Great, you chose correctly: America is the most dangerous place for Jews! But fight there, since you have come to the most dangerous place.”

I am not a hypocrite, I understand what an open world is. I am not talking only about halachic Jews (born by a Jewish mother or who converted to Judaism within orthodox Judaism - Sh.B.). I am talking about people who feel that they are part of the historical movement of the Jewish people - in the national, religious sense. We as a people go together through history. And such people become less due to assimilation. It can not be understood only as mixed marriages. But we know that the 2 / 3 descendants of mixed marriages have nothing to do with the Jews.

—What can US Jews counter to this danger?

— American Jews have discovered the most powerful weapon against it – Birthright (a program allowing Jewish youth from all over the world to visit Israel for free - Sh. B.). I was at the birth of this crazy idea. It turns out that this is the best way to ensure that your grandchildren will remain Jewish. There are two barriers to assimilation - religious faith and connection with Israel. If at least one of these factors is present, there is already a chance. Therefore, American Jewry found itself dependent on Israel. We have created a variety of programs - 400 educational and social activity projects - and are ready for every Diaspora Jew to come up with his own program for staying in Israel.

— How are Russian-speaking Jews in America different?

— “Russian” Jews in the United States are in even greater danger, since the usual institutions of American Jewish life do not correspond much to their feelings. No synagogue was the center of their life, community centers were not very good either. This applies to both Russian-speaking Jews and Hebrew-speaking Jews (Israelis who moved to live in the USA - Sh. B.). What is good, the “Russians” have everything in order with Israel. And this anchor works. American demonstrations in defense of Israel are increasingly spoken in Russian and less in English.

The head of the American Forum for Israel, Dr. Dmitry Schiglik, with a group of "Russian" US Jews at the parade in support of Israel at the Fifth Avenue of New York. Photo: Eugene Lekah

— Maybe this is because “Russian” Jews in the USA have more relatives in Israel?

- You know, we were completely assimilated Soviet Jews, but pride in Israel held us, in spite of them all. Israel was the center of our identity, and Israel's wars and Independence Day were even more important than religious holidays. Israel and anti-Semitism played a much larger role in the identity of Soviet Jews.

— How many American Jews come to Israel for permanent residence?

— In recent years, we have seen a stable figure - about 3500 people per year. 8 thousand come from France a year, but there are 10 times fewer Jews there than in America (US Jewry - approximately 5,7-6 million people, in France about 600 thousand Jews - Sh. B.). By the way, 1% of the community came from Brazil for the year.

— American repatriates in Israel – who are they socially?

— Many are young, national-religious, not necessarily orthodox. As a rule, these are young families of idealists. Alia from America is good - small and good.

— Under which of the possible American presidents will there be an increase in the departure of Jews from the United States - under Clinton or Trump?

— I think that in Israel we need to solve problems with our presidents. I can only say: no matter who becomes the president of America, our sympathies for the United States are connected not with personality, but with a community of values.

Israel is a unique place where freedom and identity come together. All people want to be free and at the same time belong to something greater than your own life. Israel is the perfect place for such a connection. In Europe, this connection has broken up - there they sacrificed identity for the sake of freedom, and in the Middle East for the sake of identity they sacrificed freedom, and for a long time and forever. Israel, as part of the Middle East, maintains itself as an island of freedom. And, being part of the free world, where identity is no longer popular, Israel retains itself as a Jewish and democratic state.

In this regard, American society is instinctively associated with these two values. We have a value relationship with America, much deeper in any of the layouts in power. Yes, there may be difficulties. They may try to push us (from Washington - Sh. B.) one way or the other. But the historical ties between our nations are unchanged.

President George W. Bush awards Natan Sharansky, 2006. Photo: White House Press Service

Between freedom and dictatorship

— President Bush Jr. advised everyone to read your book “In Defense of Democracy.” But then President Obama tried to implement your advice by imposing American democracy in the Middle East, and this caused the chaos of the “Arab Spring” in the region...

- This is wrong. First of all, I advise everyone to follow Bush's advice and read my book. In 2004, I predicted that both Mubarak and Assad would not last forever, like all dictators. Exactly the mechanism that I predicted worked. Assad has not fallen yet, but his country has collapsed. The West completely ignored all the democrats of the Middle East and was always looking for which dictator would provide them with maximum stability at that moment. Hence the bet on the “Muslim Brothers” in Egypt (in the overthrow of President Mubarak - Sh. B.).

At the moment, Egyptian President A-Sisi is our strategic ally, everyone is counting on him. But I can accurately predict that A-Sisi will not survive the term of the next US President, because he is putting everyone in prison. Like Mubarak, he will not survive 20 years in power, because now processes are moving much faster. In my book, I showed how people from “sincerely trusting” the authorities turn into “double-minded”, and from there into dissidents. This is what happened under Mubarak.

And with A-Sisi it will happen. Well, it will last 2-3 of the year, but in the end it will fly off. And the free world must think where it wants to be when the dictator flies. Does he want to be in the eyes of the people with the regime, what was the regime of Mubarak. It's funny when Obama is accused - they say he betrayed Mubarak. And what, he had to send there the American troops against the people ?! On the contrary, it was necessary to look with sober eyes and not to identify with the dictatorship.

I've talked to every American president since Reagan about Saudi Arabia. Everyone answered: “Don’t touch the Saudis, this is not a question of democracy - this is a guarantee of the stability of the West.” As a result, we got September 11, 2001 and the Wahhabis. They came from Saudi Arabia, which was perceived as a reliable support for the West. The free world is simply trying to ignore it.

Similarly, there will be no peace with the Palestinians as long as there is no civil society there.

— You mentioned President Reagan, who is highly respected by many “Russian” Jews in the United States. How do you assess his role in history?

— The Soviet Union collapsed thanks to the actions of three people - President Ronald Reagan, academician Andrei Sakharov and Senator Henry Jackson. As for Gorbachev, he was carried along by the wave of history; he was not aware of these processes. But in the person of Reagan, a Western leader appeared who began to call a spade a spade. When he called the USSR an “evil empire,” it was a great day in our prison..

- How did you find out about this statement of his while behind bars?

- When you are not in the punishment cell, you can read the Pravda newspaper. And there was a big article attacking President Reagan, who supposedly went beyond all norms of relations and called the USSR an “evil empire.” And we went into ecstasy! Finally, there is a Western leader who understands who he is dealing with. Reagan said that communism would end in the dustbin of history, while others before him - Nixon, Kissinger and all of Europe - were thinking about how to appease Moscow. I later told Reagan how inspired we all were there.

And Senator Jackson—a Democrat, by the way—was the first to make the connection between trade with the Soviet Union and freedom of emigration. Without freedom of movement of people there will be no freedom of movement of goods (the Jackson-Vanik amendment 1974 of the year sharply restricted US trade with the USSR and its satellites - Sh. B.). I was shown this in the indictment - they say, I caused damage to the Soviet Union when, as an activist of the Jewish movement, I sent letters to the West in support of the Jackson-Vanik amendment. And I gladly took this responsibility on myself.

Well, the third person is Andrei Sakharov, this is understandable. Presidents and heads of government are constantly changing, and the portrait of Academician Sakharov is always in my office.

Anatoly (Natan) Shcharansky, Academician Andrei Sakharov and Elena Bonner in Moscow, 1976. Photo: Personal Archive of Shcharansky

Ukraine-Russia: the war of earthlings with the Martians

— Doesn’t it sometimes hurt you to look at what happened to your native Donetsk?

- It hurts a lot, of course. I lived there for 18 years, there was all sorts of things, but, in principle, it was a beautiful city. From proletarian-miner and very dirty, it became more and more beautiful and cultured. Both the university and the medical institute developed; there was a lot of good things. But if in those years they asked me who the next war would be between - either between Ukrainians and Russians, or between earthlings and Martians - then I would have said, between earthlings and Martians. It was impossible to imagine. That they would start beating Jews together - yes, because anti-Semitism was very strong there.

— Did you feel anti-Semitism in Donetsk?

— Yes, all the conversations since childhood were about discrimination - what is possible, what is not. The fifth column is about nationality, and how it limits life. I dreamed of entering the physics and technical college and prepared for several years, and it was completely known that a Jew had to get a few points more in order to enter.

In addition, there was domestic anti-Semitism. I remember, I am a little boy walking down the street with my father, he has orders and medals from the war. I'm about six years old. And suddenly a passer-by says to his father: “Ooo, a jewish muzzle, where I bought the orders, in Tashkent?”. It was usual. Domestic anti-Semitism was combined with official anti-Semitism. For example, it was known that a Jew cannot simply enter such an institution.

— Is repatriation from Donbass ongoing now?

— Donetsk is one of the areas of our very active activities. A year ago the situation was the worst, they called us at Sokhnut from the basements of buildings - “urgently take us out of the broken houses.” We urgently organized transportation from Kramatorsk to Dnepropetrovsk to our camp for displaced persons - for subsequent shipment to Israel. We asked those people: “Why did you wait two years?” - “Well, we hoped that we would sell the house.” Until this house collapsed on them.

Of course, over the last two years, repatriation from Ukraine has increased, having reached 2015 in the thousands of people in 7, and almost half of them came from Eastern Ukraine. Now there the situation is “settled down”.

Nathan Sharansky. Photo: Shimon Briman

— Does your Jewish Agency have to establish relations with the separatists of Donbass in order to arrange repatriation from this region?

- No, we are primarily dealing with the Kyiv authorities. But in order to leave the conflict zone, passage through the front line must be agreed upon with both sides. There were cases when people drove on their own and were robbed at checkpoints around Donetsk and Mariupol.

Although everyone blames the other side for anti-Semitism, we don’t see any organized government anti-Semitism from above - neither from Moscow, nor Kiev, not even from the separatists. There are no cases when a person is specifically detained because he is Jewish or wants to leave for Israel. Robberies, harassment and provocations can be, anti-Semitism can be any amount, but there is no government policy in the fight against Jews either in Russia or in Ukraine.

— Is there a place in Russia now for a dissident movement, as in your youth?

“There are people who speak the truth and are not afraid. Some end tragically, like Nemtsov. Some work for Ekho Moskvy radio, like journalist Yulia Latynina. I was recently in Moscow for the 40th anniversary of our Helsinki Group, and I was pleased to see many of them. I was one of the founding fathers of that Helsinki Group. Yuri Orlov is alive, but does not leave America. They, of course, are very critical of what is happening in Russia. I understand them and share much of this.

But one cannot say that now is the same as it was in the USSR. It was a country with five million working for the KGB, with a huge gulag. To recreate it, you need to kill a lot of people again. I don't think anyone is capable of that. However, there is a big pullback from what was 15 years ago. For me, the most important criterion is the freedom of the press and the independence of the courts. And this is definitely a big problem.

Putin once explained to me that it was a mistake of previous governments when they resisted independent Jewish life, thinking that it was dangerous for Russia. He thinks that the opposite is good for Russia.

President Vladimir Putin and Israeli Minister Natan Sharansky at a meeting in the Kremlin, 2000. Photo: from the personal archive of N. Sharansky

— Putin even demonstratively supports Jewish communities...

— Yes, he very demonstratively supports the right of Jewish communities to develop and build. No one is stopping us from holding seminars and summer camps.

If earlier I had two sides - Jewish and human rights, then from the Jewish side I have to say that everything is fine, and from the human rights side I must say that I fully share the despair, disappointment and outrage of my colleagues from Russia.

The fate of Israel in 2018 year

— Recently, another “glass ceiling” was broken in Israel: Avigdor Lieberman, a native of the former USSR, became Minister of Defense. Which “ceiling” do you think will be broken next – the post of President of Israel or Prime Minister?

“There have been no ceilings for a long time.” Evika (Avigdor Lieberman - Sh. B.) appointed Bibi Netanyahu Minister of Defense, not because he had to appoint a "Russian", but because that was the political situation. And all of Israel will not rate it as “Russian”, but whether it reliably protects the security of Israel as the Minister of Defense.

Of course, at the end of 1990 for the first time in the history of Israel, we managed to break through this when people who did not speak Hebrew plainly entered the Knesset, and then 117 people became deputies and deputy mayors of Israel’s municipalities. And now there is no such post that a native of the former USSR cannot occupy.

— There have been conversations about peace in the Middle East for decades. How realistic is this?

“Those who expect that a peace treaty will suddenly be signed, that we will give up our lands, leave there, and everything will be fine—they are, to put it mildly, naive people. Neither the Oslo Accords (1993) nor the unilateral withdrawal from the Gaza Strip (2005) teach them anything (“The Oslo Accords, which created the Palestinian Authority led by Yasser Arafat, led to a new wave of Palestinian terror with hundreds of Israelis killed; the liquidation of Jewish settlements in Gaza helped the terrorist organization Hamas come to power and begin firing rockets at southern Israel - Sh. B.) .

The Oslo system has become a mistake: to take terrorist Arafat in Tunisia, bring here and explain to the Palestinians that he will be your dictator, and, moreover, corrupt, because we will pay him in his personal pocket so that he is “our” dictator. This was the meaning of the politics of the free world, and then I was totally against it. And, of course, this peace did not bring, despite all the great dreams of the "New Middle East".

I resigned as minister in 2005 and wrote to Ariel Sharon: both Jews and Palestinians will be very bad if we leave the Gaza Strip. Because we will create there the largest terrorist enclave in the region, and their rockets will fall on our Ashdod. I hope there will be no more “make the world now and immediately” experiments of this kind.

Nathan Sharansky. Photo: Brian Hendler, Jewish Agency Press Service

—Who should Israel talk to on the “other” side?

“I see all the dictatorships in the Middle East falling. Wherever there is no civil society, there is fundamentalism and terrible life. And it still teaches something. I think the Palestinians, who want a normal life and permanent peace with us, are beginning to understand that this is not what Abu Mazen is talking about, and not what the West demands from us.

When Bibi Netanyahu recently said that the Golan Heights are ours forever, then a cry came from France and the USA. I ask them: “And to whom do you want us to give the Golan? Show me one Arab living there who wants us to give them away? ” Because in this case there will be either ISIS, or Hezbollah, or Assad. There is no other option. Awareness of this creates a new situation.

Therefore, for Israel, the situation will only improve. The Western world, in which the delegitimization of Israel is so strong, has nothing to rely on: Islamic fundamentalists are its enemies. We are surrounded by the enemies of the West. No matter how influential in the West are the forces that want to betray us, but they have no one to betray us (Laughs).

We are strong in ourselves. In the Middle East before, many believed that the Palestinians were offended by Israel. But now in our region they understand that the problems are much bigger. I assure you - both Saudi Arabia and Egypt have completely different priorities today. Therefore, I am sure that for Israel the situation will only improve.

— Your forecast: how will Israel approach its 70th anniversary in 2018?

— I think life is very safe in Israel. Even in comparison with Western Europe and, in a certain sense, with the United States, there are more terrorist attacks there. But life in Israel also gives you a feeling of confidence, integration, completeness, and the absence of duality in what you think and do. In this regard, Israel is a very good place. As someone who has seen Jewish life in almost every part of the world, I think Israel is a very convenient place in this regard.

Natan Sharansky and Shimon Briman after an interview in the office of the head of the Sokhnut

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