Mikheil Saakashvili - about making friends, Ukrainian corruption and friendship with Trump and Clinton

Head of the Odessa Regional Administration Mikhail Saakashvili. A photo:
Depositphotos

The former President of Georgia, and now the governor of the Odessa region, Mikheil Saakashvili spent more than one year of his life in America. Here he studied, got married, worked in a law firm, and taught. The first time he left the United States to become a member of the Georgian parliament, and later one of the leaders of the Rose Revolution to lead Georgia and create the Georgian reform miracle. The last time he left America for Ukraine, however, a miracle in a single area did not work - there was not enough authority.

Interview recorded during a joint information project. ForumDaily and american studios Free voice during the visit of Mikhail Saakashvili to California Sacramento at the Ukrainian festival in honor of the Independence Day of Ukraine.

You have a lot to do with America. You studied at the magistracy of Columbia University in Washington and at the University of Washington in Washington, and you worked at a law firm in New York. After the end of your second term, you returned to the United States to teach. You did not think to move here to live?

Not. I was here for two years, when my presidential powers ended, and I had far-reaching plans. But the Revolution of Dignity took place in Ukraine, and I gladly went there. I was on the Maidan, then the government of Yanukovych denied me the right to stay in the country. They had a blacklist, which they gave to all customs and border services of Ukraine - so they wouldn't let us in. I returned to Ukraine on the same day when Maidan won.

And you know what I can say? When I first came to the United States in the post-Soviet period - I practiced law here, worked in a well-known law firm in New York - in general there was no talk about the mutual influence of our countries. But what is happening now in America? On the eve I spoke with one of the main representatives of President Obama during his first presidential campaign. He told me that the events in Georgia (armed conflict between Russia and Georgia over South Ossetia. - Ed.) then had a huge impact on the presidential campaign in the United States. Everyone was frightened here because of what was happening in Georgia. And it had an effect on the mood of the voters.

The same thing is happening now. Today I opened The Wall Street Journal. And what do I see? Republicans have officially admitted that Donald Trump fired Paul Manafort (who was the chief strategist of Trump's presidential campaign, and previously an adviser to the Ukrainian Party of Regions and fugitive President Viktor Yanukovych - Ed.) due to a scandal related to Ukraine. That is, our countries now have enormous influence on political events in the United States. That’s why it’s interesting to be in our region. History is decided here. And I am very glad that I have the opportunity to be, although not in the center of these events, but very close to the center.

Mikheil Saakashvili. Photo: Depositphotos

Were not sorry that they left America and left for Ukraine?

Never. As I said, the most interesting things are happening in Ukraine now. The same thing happened when I left for Georgia. Although I am sure that if I had stayed in New York, I would have already had the status of a partner in a law firm. But this life was boring for me. She guaranteed quite a lot of money, but I was interested in doing other things, I like real challenges.

In Washington, I wrote my doctoral dissertation in international law with the renowned Professor Thomas Buergenthal. When I was elected to the Parliament of Georgia and I was about to leave, I promised him to finish my dissertation, and he advised me to change the subject and write about building a new country - they say, this is what I will do all the next years. And he was right. We are doing the same thing now in Ukraine. There are few people in the world who participated in the construction of two countries. Therefore, I consider myself very happy. And it is impossible to change either for American comfort or for financial issues. I try to do what I believe will influence the region and the world.

In Ukraine, there were a lot of rumors about who you will be appointed. Have you been promised a prime minister position?

Yes. I was offered more than once, and was offered by different political forces, and the president spoke about it. But I was not sure that this was possible, because the Verkhovna Rada is a very complex body. So, if I were in the place of my friend Groysman (Prime Minister of Ukraine - Ed.), I would not know whether to agree or not [to this position]. Now he is the prime minister and everyone expects him to do something for the country. However, in Ukraine, any step that could be aimed at real improvements is blocked every time it reaches parliament, pressure groups, or ministries or local governments. Every official, regardless of level, can block any positive initiative. Changing something for the better is almost impossible. And this does not depend on whether you are a governor with very limited powers or a prime minister who formally has these powers.

I don’t want to be a fatalist - but first we need to change this system in Ukraine, we need to 100% change the attitude of the authorities towards people. This requires a change in the political class. Its representatives were always in power, regardless of whether they were in the opposition or—formally—in the government. By their actions, they led to Ukraine becoming the poorest country in Europe in terms of GDP.

Positive news for all of us - there are already new people, young people to replace the old political elite. Some of them are in parliament, some work as deputies in ministries, some in our administration. Their motivation is to make a new country, to be the creators or fathers of a new country. And these are such great ambitions that cannot be measured by money or privileges. The older generation does not understand this; this idealism is not familiar to them. We are not safe for them. They know that a new generation is on the way and the threat is real. And they will do everything to prevent this from happening.

Poroshenko Saakashvili is an asset of the Odessa region. May 2015 of the year. Photos of the Presidential Administration

One of the founders of the Singapore economic miracle, Lee Kuan Yew, formulated a methodology for fighting corruption: “Start by planting three of your friends. You know exactly what, and they know what. ” Who do you think should sit under President Poroshenko so that the country successfully combats corruption?

When I worked in Georgia, many officials from the former government were held accountable for their actions. But if they paid a certain amount to the budget, we released them. Our goal was not to send everyone to prison en masse. Our philosophy was: let them return what they stole, and let them leave power so that we never hear from them again.

Almost all of the first 8 or 9 parliamentarians who were arrested for corruption were from my party. I considered several of them to be my friends. They were very active during the revolution, and then decided that this gives them the right to do the same thing, which we opposed.

I don’t expect that high-ranking officials in Ukraine will now arrest anyone. This is from the realm of fantasy. At the same time, the National Anti-Corruption Bureau (NABU) was created in Ukraine, where many young people were recruited. They receive high (by Ukrainian standards) salaries, and they have the necessary powers. They began to arrest quite interesting high-ranking officials, including the director of the Odessa port plant. And now a conflict has flared up between the National Anti-Corruption Bureau and the existing prosecutor’s office, which is more controlled by the authorities, between NABU and parliament, between NABU and part of the Presidential Administration. They all did not expect that there was a body in the country that itself decided who should be sent to prison.

The Petro Poroshenko Bloc recently announced that you will soon resign. Do you see signs of an approaching resignation or, as they say, “can’t wait”?

Well, no one was born in any position and should not sit there until death. But I feel resistance. For example, who is united against us in the Odessa region? In fact, it is easier to say who is not united.

At the same time, you need to understand that in Ukraine now there are almost no real political parties, there are influence groups, local clans. They change colors depending on who is in power. Thus, some of yesterday’s regionalists joined the “Petro Poroshenko Bloc” or the “People’s Front”, some remained regionalists, but they are playing their own game with their own mafia structures. But this is the same “elite” that has always existed. When they see someone trying to change it, they resist. The same thing is happening in Odessa. For the first time in the history of Odessa, customs does not take bribes. But when we closed this feeding trough, they were very offended by us. But where there are real changes, there is resistance. If there was no resistance, I would be very unhappy. That would mean we didn't do anything. But at the same time, I am very dissatisfied with our results. I expected that many things would be done faster. Although, as they said in the past, it is impossible to build communism in a single region of Ukraine. We need to build it all over the country. We need real changes in Kyiv.

During the recording of the interview. Screenshot from video

Together with Donald Trump you presented the Trump Tower Batumi project. Did you then imagine that he could be President of the United States? What are your impressions of him?

Of course I did. He always said that he would be president. This was his dream, and he was not going to give it up. When I came from Georgia to America and started teaching, he called me and invited me to his place. He then said: “You are no longer the president, and some may not want to call you anymore, but I will always do it. And when I become president, I will call and invite you even more.”

He has talent, he speaks on topics that excite many Americans, but there are topics that I personally take seriously. For example, that it is not necessary to support NATO.

And what he said about the Crimea and Ukraine is a horror. Although the Republicans have always supported both Georgia and Ukraine in the struggle for independence against the aggressors, against occupation and annexation.

Did you have the opportunity to talk to him about this?

Not now. When we communicated with him in the past, he was always very critical of Putin. I don’t like his current statement that he will talk with Putin about recognizing Crimea - against all the principles of the Republicans, against the principles of America. I really hope he changes his position on this issue.

Trump also said he was going to make a deal with Putin. No one can make a deal with Putin. I know Putin much better than Trump. Trump does not know Putin. I have repeatedly tried to make an agreement with Putin, to find mutual understanding on certain topics. And I can say with confidence that this is absolutely impossible. Just as it is impossible to negotiate with a crocodile so that he does not eat you.

Putin need to restrain. Exactly what Ukraine has done - the military at the cost of their lives saved not only Ukraine, but the whole of Europe from this threat. I am sometimes told that the American political elite is tired of Ukraine for well-known reasons: corruption, inefficiency of power, etc. But they have a real problem, and this problem is Russia. They have no influence on the processes in Russia, but they can help Ukraine with reforms, a new generation of politicians, and this will change Russia.

Mikhail Saakashvili in Kiev. Photo: Depositphotos

What do you think of Hillary Clinton? Who do you think is more likely to win?

I am not an octopus from Germany, who always predicted the results of football matches, so it’s hard for me to talk about chances.

I know Hillary Clinton very well. She nominated me for the Nobel Prize in 2005 with Senator McCain. Bill Clinton also supported me from the first days of my presidency.

Hillary is very talented. In fact, in life she has a great political talent, the TV does not fully transmit it. On the other hand, Trump on the screen feels like a fish in water.

I have seen the latest polls and I know that Hillary Clinton has very good chances. But do not underestimate what may happen. Many people who vote for Trump do not talk about it during polls. We have already seen this effect during Brexit.

What I like is that Hillary had a very clear position on Putin’s Russia, more radical than the Obama administration. Putin hates Hillary. He made it so that before the Democratic convention the hacker mail was hacked. I expect him to do something else so that she looks publicly weaker than she is.

But Trump is also a very talented person. So it will be an interesting company.

Do you have favorite places in the USA?

I lived most of the time in New York - it was the first place in the USA that I came to. I got married in New York. But I don't really like him. It, like a city, is very complex, difficult, and depressing for me. I like other cities better - Washington, California, and I like Miami more and more. And Colorado Springs, I really like the people there. They are more open, more real. It is very pleasant to communicate with them.

Mikheil Saakashvili. Photo: Depositphotos

Finally, a few questions from the "By the way ..." category. What book are you reading now?

I read Ukrainian poetry a lot - trying to improve my Ukrainian language. I read Lina Kostenko, other Ukrainian poets. For me, Ukrainian poetry is a discovery in general, because it is a fantastic world of poetry, romanticism, patriotism, and psychology. Very deep poetry in the sixties. I read Oksana Zabuzhko - and recently met her.

From world literature, I read Pamuk a lot. I don't remember the last time I read an American author. But Donald Trump said that he hasn’t read a book for 25 years—there’s no time. This is where he and I differ. This is also in our approaches to Putin.

What is your favorite place on earth?

Kiev and my vineyard in Georgia.

What day of your life is remembered as the happiest?

The victory of the first Maidan, the second Maidan, the victory in the Georgian Rose Revolution, the victory in Adjara, when we returned the separatist region to Georgia. It was the first and so far the last time that Putin lost control of the separatist territory. Such dates for me are a symbol of what it is worth living to wait for such moments.

When was the last time you cried?

When I was with family members of the dead Ukrainian and Georgian officers who were buried in Ukraine. At such times, it is always hard for me to hold back tears.

Why do you love life?

For the fact that every day is interesting.

See also:

Ukrainian Prosecutor General Yuriy Lutsenko about how much Yanukovych stole and how to fight corruption

Parmesan's ban: top 10 bans in Russia

Georgia and Ukraine entered the top 5 endangered nations on Earth

Ukrainian Prosecutor's Office is looking for who stole a US grant to reform it

Do you want more important and interesting news about life in the USA and immigration to America? — support us donate! Also subscribe to our page Facebook. Select the “Priority in display” option and read us first. Also, don't forget to subscribe to our РєР ° РЅР ° Р »РІ Telegram  and Instagram- there is a lot of interesting things there. And join thousands of readers ForumDaily New York — there you will find a lot of interesting and positive information about life in the metropolis.