Ukrainian Prosecutor General Yuriy Lutsenko about how much Yanukovych stole and how to fight corruption

Yury Lutsenko. Photo: Shimon Briman

Yuriy Lutsenko is already the fourth Prosecutor General of Ukraine after the Revolution of Dignity of 2013-2014. His appointment was criticized most of all - Kum President, without legal education, but with prison experience under the previous government of Yanukovych. However, Lutsenko proved his innocence in the European Court of Human Rights. Now former President Yanukovych is in hiding, and the prosecutor’s office, headed by Yuriy Lutsenko, is faced with the task of proving his crimes not in word, but in deed—in court. And at the same time, to show that from the principle “everything is for friends, but the law is for enemies,” Ukraine has moved to the American rule “everyone is equal before the law.” ForumDaily I spoke with a charismatic Ukrainian politician in Israel, where Lutsenko was on a working visit.

Prosecutor with barricades

— Yuri, you were at the barricades of the first Maidan 2004. Why did you have to go to the second?

— I was not a professional revolutionary. But two Maidans mean that the goals of the first revolution were not achieved. All three components - an anti-criminal revolution, a national revolution and a change in geopolitical course - were not achieved after the first Maidan. When I became the first civilian head of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, in a month I removed one and a half thousand heads of district police departments. Then I realized that all processes were being slowed down in the prosecutor’s office, which I called the “general burial ground.”

Therefore, the middle class rebelled a second time. The second Maidan was already a full-fledged revolution, which, unfortunately, was washed in blood. We were forced to go through the blood of Maidan and the blood of thousands of our sons in Donbass in order to understand the meaning of the state of Ukraine. Previously, people lived in the country - now people understand the value of the state.

President of Ukraine Poroshenko represents the new Prosecutor General Yuriy Lutsenko. Photos of the press service of the Prosecutor General’s Office

- But now you yourself are in charge of this “burial ground”...

My 25-year-old son returned from the ATO, where he served as a volunteer, and asked: "Father, why does nothing change in the country?" I accepted this challenge. My favorite slogan is: “Life is given, if not protected” (laughs. — Sh.B.).

We have created the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine (NABU), aimed at the top political and economic elites. They created a new police and greatly changed the prosecutor's office. They also created a special bureau that will monitor the income declarations of all civil servants.

— Did your personal experience in prison have any impact?

“I will never forget how they led me around the building on a two-meter chain - the investigator walked on the right and said: “Everything is according to the law,” and the prosecutor walked on the left and said: “Human rights have not been violated.” Yes, I won the European Court of Human Rights, but it cost me two and a half years in prison. Therefore, my key task is the reform of the Prosecutor General’s Office, and its “tsimes” is the separation of the investigation (the National Anti-Corruption Bureau needs to do this) and prosecutorial supervision, which will now be called “procedural management”. And this will guarantee the end of gross and systematic violations of human rights.

Unfortunately, the Prosecutor General's Office is the last Soviet dinosaur; it was not affected by reforms. In spirit and practice it remains a Soviet monster. There must be a European approach: investigation and supervision of the investigation - not in one office.

— Will foreign countries help you?

— As the head of Transparency International advised me, “catch the big fish.” And in our conditions - “catch the big fish organizations.” Our corruption is systemic, and the issue is not about individual corrupt officials, but about systems of embezzlement.

— Let’s clarify: in the systems of embezzlement under Yanukovych or now?

— Very little changes. An example is the state grain company of Ukraine. Under Yanukovych, $300 million in Chinese loans were stolen there. After the 2014 revolution, the management was formed by the far-right Svoboda party - and the theft was noticeable. After the parliamentary elections, the management was formed by the liberal Samopomich party - the same actions, albeit on a smaller scale. We need to not just change the thieving manager, but radically change the system.

— Yanukovych’s former residence, Mezhyhirya, has become a symbol of the past government. On Google maps it is now designated as the Museum of Corruption, and everything there - from the house to the zoo - is run by volunteers, just like on the Maidan. What is her fate?

— By the end of this year we are going to take Yanukovych’s case to court. Mezhyhirya will be part of this business. The law allows us a special regime of investigation in absentia and sentencing in absentia. If this process is completed with a guilty decision by the court, Mezhyhirya will be unconditionally confiscated in favor of the state.

— Is there a demand for “loud landings” in Ukrainian society?

“I’m not chasing the number of arrests or major cases. By the end of this year, I am going to bring to court the big case of Yanukovych, which began with the usurpation of power and continued with the large-scale plunder of the country.

We estimate losses in only two areas - energy and non-payment of taxes - at $12 billion. I am interested in the public destruction of the schemes and the money returned to the budget.

— More than two years have passed since the Maidan, and society has a question: why are things taking so long?

“The most important stage – the judicial investigation – will begin soon. We are now working on carefully formulating the charges and on carefully collecting evidence, with a very long expert procedure. But by the end of the year we will see the transfer of cases of treason and embezzlement. There are cases of 10 volumes, 500 and 1200 volumes, this is a huge amount of work for the investigative apparatus.

I understand that when I took this position, I put more than just my reputation on the line. I understand that the success of the second revolution depends on the success of punishment and restoration of justice. People will believe in changes in the country through obvious and tangible results in this area. Today on the streets people shake my hand and wish me success, but I understand: from popular support to hatred is only half a step. And I intend to take these half steps in the right direction.

— Are there already results of the prosecutor’s office working in a new way?

“We have never arrested a Hero of Ukraine, a vice-governor, a deputy minister, a current deputy or a billionaire before – and all this was done during my first 100 days in this post. This is how we will move until the state budget glass is full. There is a glass you want to drink, but there is a hole at the bottom.

Oil and gas sector practically does not pay taxes. And today we are bringing to justice the current fugitive deputy Onishchenko, who has stolen from the budget through joint activity schemes. We are also bringing to justice Zlochevsky, a fugitive from the Yanukovych government who did not pay taxes on the gas market. And we are preparing for an attack on the next companies of the oligarchs - for obvious reasons I cannot name them yet. After this, I will turn to parliament - change the laws, close the hole.

Even in my homeland in Rivne region more $700 thousand per day in cash accounted for amber trafficking. In handcuffs, we removed the deputy regional prosecutor, many of those arrested and even more suspects.

— We have a saying in Israel: “It’s not the mouse’s fault, but the hole.”

— And we have another saying in Ukraine: “There is free cheese, but only for the second mouse” (laughs. — Sh.B.).

— Who will deal with corrupt prosecutors, by the way?

— National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine (NABU).

The Templars Putin and Trump

— Your vision of the political future of Donbass? Frozen conflict for decades?

“This is a full-fledged Russian-Ukrainian war, and the keys to the solution are not so much in Kyiv as in Moscow. She started the invasion, and the answer to your question depends on when Putin decides to stop it. The withdrawal of the third, occupying force from the conflict will lead to its rapid resolution.

If an aggressive neighbor broke down the wall of your house, set it on fire and adds gasoline every day - what is the solution? Close the wall. The issue of Ukrainian troops entering the state border is a matter of principle. The next question is what to do with the remaining gasoline, with 40 thousand armed local separatists. If 8 thousand of the occupation corps of the professional Russian army leave, what to do with the rest? This is the most difficult question. You can’t transplant everyone and send them to Mars. This is a question for Ukraine - reintegration through punishment of the organizers and amnesty for the performers. But only after raising the Ukrainian state flag throughout the Donbass and closing the border.

— Moscow says that Kyiv is a puppet receiving orders from Washington. How much does the US influence Ukrainian politics?

— It would be nice to receive Washington’s money and weapons at the same time, but the story of the 2-year receipt of the IMF tranche indicates the opposite. We have constructive cooperation with the United States, and it is often quite difficult. Kyiv has recently felt more joint contacts with Brussels rather than with Washington. I would really like for the Americans to pursue foreign policy more actively, including in Ukraine. This would benefit the task of stopping Putin and his Neanderthal policies. We are waiting for the results of the US elections, and we really hope that the Americans will step up their position as the leader of the free world in Eastern Europe.

— If American Ukrainians ask who they should vote for, what will you tell them?

— Ukrainians all over the world, and in the USA in particular, are very economic people. And they themselves clearly know their own and national interests. The American political system quite steadily defends its national interests and its place as the leader of the democratic world, regardless of the party that comes to power.

— Many experts regard Trump’s statements on Ukraine as unfriendly. Is there a danger for Ukraine if Trump wins the 2016 elections?

- You know, yesterday I saw their symbol in the Templar church - two knights on one horse. And recently I saw a picture of Putin and Trump on the same horse - they look like some kind of “Trampliers” (laughs. — Sh.B.).

Israel will help look for money Ukrainian mafia

— What was discussed at your negotiations in Israel?

— There was an informal meeting with the very interesting and charismatic head of the Israeli Ministry of Defense Avigdor Lieberman. Negotiations also took place with Prosecutor General Shai Nitzan and Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked, and a memorandum of joint action was signed. We focus on finding money from the Ukrainian mafia. According to our information, this money is far from being in Israel, but, nevertheless, Israeli specialists - both active and retired - are offering us help in this matter, and it would be stupid not to take advantage of it.

In Israel, Lutsenko signed a memorandum of understanding between the Prosecutor General’s Office of Ukraine and the Israeli Ministry of Justice. In the photo: Yuriy Lutsenko and the head of the Ministry of Justice of Israel, Ayelet Shaked. Photo: Embassy of Ukraine in Israel

Well, our main question was about the former Minister of Energy of the Yanukovych government, Mr. Stavitsky, who adopted the surname Rosenberg in Israel. Based on our case materials, we suspect him of illegally allocating land for the residence of the state mafia - Mezhyhirya. Losses amounted to about $50 million. Stavitsky executed all the shady deals. We first submitted documents in Israel to announce the suspicion to him, and in June - documents for his extradition. Through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, my colleagues and I discussed working aspects in this process. We would also agree with the trial taking place in Israel. But this is too troublesome with calling witnesses and other legal procedures.

От редакции: Stavitsky himself in interview the Internet publication Ukrainskaya Pravda explained the change of surname by repatriation to Israel: “In Israel, there is such a tradition: those who repatriate go to the names and names of their ancestors in order to adapt more quickly. This is not a fake name. This is the name of my grandfather and the family name of my family. I do not invent anything. Moreover, in any part of the world, wherever I am with my document, I am still adapted to my first name - Edward Stavitsky. Such a law in Israel. "

— Is there a reaction from the Israeli side to these proposals?

— Our request will be carefully considered. I saw complete mutual understanding on the Israeli side. This procedure depends not only on the Prosecutor General’s Office and the Ministry of Justice, but also on Mr. Stavitsky-Rosenberg, on the judicial system and other factors.

Israeli colleagues tell us about the possibility of extradition, while guaranteeing that Mr. Stavitsky-Rosenberg’s possible term of punishment in Israel would be served. This is absolutely not a problem for our country. I also consider it possible to offer Stavitsky and a deal with the investigation, the provision on which is already legally formalized in Ukraine. This does not save him from punishment and confiscation, but can reduce the period in cooperation with the investigation and shorten the procedure.

We need a positive signal in this matter. Will he be forced for Mr. Stavitsky, or will it be a step on his part? The ball is on his side of the field.

— Another minister of Yanukovych is also in Israel..

— Do you mean Tabachnik? (Minister of Education in the Yanukovych government - Sh. B.). He is on the international wanted list. His case is not as large-scale as the Stavitsky case. There still lasts a pretrial investigation and the decision on extradition is not made.

— Do you feel something special or personal in Israel?

“Here is a certain magnet, common to the Christian-Jewish world - a point where you can feel your “anchor to the past.” I am from Ukraine, an Orthodox Christian, but yesterday I had an unforgettable excursion underground along the wall of the Jerusalem Temple. I saw the full power of the wall in this tunnel, and therefore the scale of the state.

But the most important thing that attracts here are people. I am always very sorry that so many Ukrainian Jews left Odessa, and it becomes not the same as I love. Here I meet people I know in Ukraine, and they know me.

— How can Israel’s experience be useful to Ukraine?

— On my second visit here as head of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, we looked at the construction of the separation wall (with the Palestinian territories - Sh. B.). The Israelis shared their professional secrets.

When I saw the inscription "Latrun" on the highway, I immediately remembered that battle for the key to Jerusalem. When I read the history of the creation of the state of Israel, I envied people who, after the camps and almost unarmed, were able to build their own state in such conditions. Coming to Israel, it is important to make sure: the unity and perseverance of the people in the most difficult circumstances give the best results. For me, this is a very good example of a nation that has managed to recreate itself and make itself respected. At the same time, not by the Russian way of fear, but by its own way - by force and prosperity. This is what we need in Ukraine. And all this will come true.

Yury Lutsenko in the Verkhovna Rada. Photo: Depositphotos

— On the threshold of the 25th anniversary of Ukraine’s independence, what is your forecast for the future?

“Twenty-five years old means that the most dangerous age has passed. Along the way, we became infected with bad diseases - oligarchy, internal social and civilizational tension, but every cloud has a silver lining. What Putin did led to a new quality of Ukrainian society. My son served as a simple artillery soldier, and around him were workers from Akhmetov’s factories. They spoke Ukrainian “Surzhik” or Russian, but were ready to tear Putin apart for Ukraine.

The East-West language division and religious issues are gone. People realized that they were different, but Ukrainians. It was the most important point - that we managed to overcome the split imposed from Moscow by the hands of Yanukovich on different lines.

I am now confident in the viability of the Ukrainian state. The whole question is how quickly we will be able to build a normal life. With occupied territories? With the Crimea tomorrow or the day after tomorrow? With or without oligarchy? With a bet on the agricultural sector or the scientific and industrial?

These are already questions of adults, and not the deceived boys that we were yesterday.

See also:

Evidence of the corruption of the Russian and Ukrainian authorities laid out in open access

Ukrainian Prosecutor's Office is looking for who stole a US grant to reform it

How to repatriate to Israel

Go to the page ForumDaily on Facebook to keep abreast of the latest news and comment material. Also follow the social network for events in your city - Miami, New York и San Francisco Bay Area.