'Corrupt and terrible people': Volcker told what Trump thinks about Ukraine

The House of Representatives of the US Congress released transcripts of testimony of former State Department spokesman for Ukraine Kurt Walker and US ambassador to the EU Gordon Sondland. They were heard as part of the impeachment process of US President Donald Trump. Writes about it with the BBC.

Фото: Depositphotos

The reason for the beginning of the impeachment was the July telephone conversation between the presidents of the United States and Ukraine, during which Trump allegedly put pressure on Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelensky, demanding that he initiate an investigation against the Burisma company, whose board of directors included Hunter Biden, the son of Trump's political opponent Joe Biden.

The testimony of Kurt Walker and Gordon Sondland is set out on several hundred pages.

Walker: Giuliani wanted Zelensky to remember Burisma

Kurt Walker confirmed at the hearing that US President Donald Trump spoke out negatively about Ukrainians when 23 on May 2019 in the White House discussed the possibility of Vladimir Zelensky’s visit to the United States.

"It was a long... statement that 'they're all corrupt, they're all terrible people,' and 'I don't want to waste my time on this.' And he also said, “They were trying to throw me off,” Walker reported.

He added that he was trying to convince Trump that Vladimir Zelensky promised to overcome those things that irritate the US president. But Trump remained unconvinced and noted that he had heard completely different things from his lawyer Rudy Giuliani.

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During a meeting with Vladimir Zelensky and Andrei Bogdan in Toronto on July 3, 2019, Volcker told them that Rudy Giuliani was spreading a “negative narrative about Ukraine.”

“I explained that I believe there is a negative narrative about Ukraine that counters all the good things that Zelensky is doing... and that is reinforced by Rudy Giuliani. This is a negative factor for the image of Ukraine in the United States and the further development of bilateral relations,” he noted.

“The negative narrative about Ukraine that Mr. Giuliani promoted was a problem. In my opinion, this hindered our ability to build relationships,” added Kurt Volker.

However, according to the ex-diplomat, Ukrainian officials “asked to include” Giuliani in the conversation because they believed that through him they could convey alternative information to Trump.

That is why, according to Walker, he organized a telephone conversation between Rudi Giuliani and Zelensky's assistant Andrei Ermak on 22 on July, at which an agreement was reached on their meeting in Madrid in August.

Following the meeting, Andriy Yermak sent Volker a draft statement by the President of Ukraine on combating corruption, but he did not include references to the Burisma case and the son of Joe Biden.

Rudi Giuliani's reaction to this project was negative and he said that he needed to be redone.

"We talked to Rudy and I said, 'So what you said at the end of that same statement is to just insert Burisma and 2016, and do you think that would be more correct?' “He nodded yes,” Kurt Walker said.

He added that he first asked Andrei Yermak to include Burisma and the mention of the investigation regarding the interference with the elections. Zelensky’s assistant asked him to find out if the US State Department had ever made an official request to investigate these cases and it turned out that there had never been such a request.

“Ermak said, I think it’s quite appropriate, that if you give a response to an official request, that’s one thing. If there is no official request, then this is a completely different matter. I agreed with him and advised him not to do anything,” Volker said.

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According to him, the statement “died” because Ukrainian officials did not want to include any mention of Burisma and the investigation into Ukrainian interference in the US election process.

At a congressional hearing, Kurt Walker announced that he had learned about the freezing of defense assistance to Ukraine on 18 in July and had long tried to find out the reason for this decision from State Department and Pentagon officials, but no one knew about it.

Kurt Volker also warned Rudy Giuliani that Ukrainian Prosecutor General Yuriy Lutsenko “is not trustworthy.”

“Lutsenko is not trustworthy. Don’t listen to what he says,” Volker warned Giuliani when he was preparing to go to Ukraine to raise the issue of the Biden investigation.

Walker also noted that he believes that at the time of his post as vice president, Joe Biden demanded the dismissal of the Prosecutor General of Ukraine Viktor Shokin.

Sondland: Military aid to Ukraine 'likely' hinged on Biden investigation

US Ambassador to the EU Gordon Sondland revised his testimony during an investigation in Congress that could lead to the impeachment of Donald Trump.

Gordon Sondland told a congressional hearing that he remembered telling a Ukrainian official that US military aid was “likely” contingent on a political investigation sought by Mr Trump.

Mr. Sondland previously denied any politically motivated freeze on aid.

Donald Trump has denied freezing 400 million dollars in aid to force Ukraine to advance an investigation against his rival Joe Biden.

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On Tuesday, November 5, a transcript of Mr Sondland's testimony was published.

Mr. Sondland, who is the founder of the Provenance Hotels chain of hotels and the Trump campaign donor, became the EU ambassador in June 2018, providing an appendix to the three-page readings.

In the appendix, Mr. Sondland says that he remembers the conversation from September 1 with Andrei Ermak, Zelensky’s assistant.

“I now recall that I spoke separately with Mr. Ermak, where I said that the renewal of US assistance would likely not happen until Ukraine made a public anti-corruption statement, which we have been discussing for many weeks,” Mr. Sondland said.

Viewing Mr. Sondland’s testimony is significant, as he previously denied any assumptions about the connection between US aid and political investigations during the investigation.

William Taylor, the acting US ambassador to Ukraine, repeatedly asked Mr Sondland in text messages whether this was a quid pro quo, Latin for “exchange of favors”.

“Are we now saying that security assistance and a meeting at the White House for the President of Ukraine are due to investigations?” William Taylor asked Sondland.

He responded on September 9: “Bill, I believe you are wrong about President Trump's intentions. The President was absolutely clear: “no quid pro quo of any kind.”

Why did Sondland change his testimony?

“Ambassador Gordon Sondland played a key role in secret negotiations between the US administration and the government of Vladimir Zelensky. On October 3, he testified for several hours at closed congressional hearings,” writes the Russian service with the BBC.

It was his speech that became the main argument for White House representatives and Republicans on Capitol Hill speaking in defense of President Trump. In his testimony, Ambassador Sondland consistently denied that the administration used a quid pro quo approach in negotiations with representatives of Kyiv, and stated that the White House never linked the issue of providing military assistance to Ukraine with the investigation into former US Vice President Joe Biden and his son.

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Late last week, Democrats announced that they were ready to release transcripts of speeches by former and current administration officials, including a transcript of the ambassador to the EU. On the afternoon of Monday, November 3, Sondland suddenly announced that he would like to change his testimony and submitted to Congress “multi-page amendments” to the transcript of the previous speech.

According to observers, the reason for this step was the testimony of other witnesses who, in their speeches to Congress, directly refuted Sondland's statements. Democrats in Congress considered these contradictions so serious that they announced the possibility of officially accusing the diplomat of giving false testimony under oath. The ambassador himself, however, referred to the fact that he decided to make amendments and transmit a new version of his testimony to legislators after he “refreshed his memory” and “had extensive meetings” with representatives of the administration.

What did Sondland say?

In the new version of his speech, the ambassador announced that the principle of “quid pro quo” was the main one in negotiations with representatives of the Ukrainian authorities. According to him, he personally informed a senior Kyiv official that Washington, in all likelihood, he will not resume the provision of military assistance until Kiev agrees to announce the start of an investigation into political opponents of the US president.

According to documents submitted by Sondland to Congress, Vladimir Zelensky expressed his concern to the suspension of military assistance to US Vice President Mike Pence during a meeting in Warsaw on September 1 this year.

After that, the ambassador himself reminded the Advisor to the President of Ukraine Andriy Yermak that the provision of assistance will be related to the fulfillment of the wishes of President Trump.

It follows from the documents provided by the ambassador that President Donald Trump spoke extremely negatively about Ukraine in private conversations, claiming that the Kiev authorities organized interference in the U.S. elections in 2016, trying to help Democratic representative Hillary Clinton.

Sondland himself considers the personal lawyer of the US President Rudolph Giuliani to be the “author” of this theory. Former State Department officials, including former Ambassador to Ukraine Mary Yovanovitch and former US Special Representative Kurt Volcker, also said that it was Giuliani who shaped the administration's policy towards Kyiv.

“It was clear to all of us that the key figure in influencing the change in the President's attitude towards Ukraine was Mr. Giuliani,” Sondland said in the testimony.

The ambassador said he was “disappointed” that President Trump personally ordered Giuliani to be included in the negotiations with Ukrainian representatives. He also emphasized that he regarded the attempts of the president’s personal lawyer to convince official Kyiv to open an investigation into Joe Biden as illegal.

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According to a new version of Sondland's testimony, he personally "always believed that withholding military aid to Ukraine was the wrong decision." The ambassador clarified that, according to the original plan, the Ukrainian Prosecutor General could make an official statement about the start of an investigation against Trump’s political opponents. Later, the administration decided that President Zelensky should make this statement personally.

How did the White House react?

The US administration called new statements by the ambassador to the European Union another proof that there was no talk of any “quid pro quo” principle in the negotiations between Trump and Zelensky.

“Ambassador Sondland states bluntly that he “did not know (and still does not know) when, why, or at whose direction the aid was withheld.” He also said he "assumes" there was a reason for this, but could not cite any reliable source for this assumption, White House press secretary Stephanie Grisham said in a statement.

As ForumDaily wrote earlier:

• Congressmen became interested in a telephone conversation between Zelensky and Trump as part of an investigation into whether Trump and his lawyer Rudolf Giuliani tried put pressure on Ukraine in order to help Trump's election campaign in 2020 year.
• Democrats announce formal request for US impeachment, which was triggered by a conversation between Ukrainian and American leaders.
• US Department of State published conversation transcript President of Ukraine Vladimir Zelensky and President of the United States Donald Trump.
• An anonymous informant stated in his complaint that in the United States tried to hide the content of the conversation Trump and Zelensky.
• US House of Representatives 31 October approved the resolution according to which the investigation into the possibility of impeachment US President Donald Trump goes to the public stage.

Read also on ForumDaily:

'People need to hear': Trump wants to read to Americans the transcript of conversation with Zelensky

An American military of Ukrainian origin aroused indignation of Trump: what is known about him

Poll: more than half of voters support Trump's impeachment

Unexpectedly: impeachment can help Trump win the 2020 presidential election of the year

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